So, Stimulus Package: Good idea/Bad idea?

[IrishCream]

Got a bad feelin' we got a nasty inflation comin' in our future... This economy shit probably would've worked itself out eventually. The government throwing around money was what made shit stink in the first place; I somehow doubt it's the solution.


Okay, obligatory dick joke: I've got a stimulus package...IN MY PANTS!


Discuss

[Junkogen]

Got a bad feelin' we got a nasty inflation comin' in our future... This economy shit probably would've worked itself out eventually. The government throwing around money was what made shit stink in the first place; I somehow doubt it's the solution.


Okay, obligatory dick joke: I've got a stimulus package...IN MY PANTS!


Discuss

There are so many things wrong with the economy that no matter what it's never going to work.

Our current economic model is basically a giant pyramid scheme with each level supporting and increasing the wealth of the upper.

What you seem to support is the idea floated by the likes of Ron Paul and the Libertarians about how completely unleashing the free market is the best option. I have my doubts. I think it inevitably leads to essentially what we have now with basically an oligarchy controlling everything. Without regulation the "winners" start to gain supremacy and rig the system to drown out or absorb any potential challenges to their imposed order. It turns into a bunch of monopolies. And then when and if the system crashes or the giant goes down then the whole economic system implodes, which is kind of what was going to happen if something wasn't done to stabilize the economy.

While I'm not in favor of a completely communist or socialist government, consolidating all power with the government, I think we definitely need checks and balances. I do think that we need something in place that allows for equal opportunity and doesn't hinder the potential of new generations of people.

I think eventually the real change has to come from people. People have to see the value in helping each other as much as helping themselves. Our current system, if I understand it correctly, is founded in the ideas of Adam Smith and his theory that free market capitalism is the best form of an economy because it plays into the inherent selfishness of people. I hope that that's not true. I hope that humanity can get over its selfishness and start to see the earth as more of a collective being, as I think it truly is, with everything relying on the other for survival and prosperity. Once that kind of mental and cultural foundation is in place, I think this country and the world would start to see the real benefit in allowing everyone to fulfill his own special self-realization, full potential, and self-worth.

It really demands a lot from people initially, but I think once people could get their minds in that sort of mentality it would kind of sustain itself. But it takes a lot of psychological self-deprogramming from each individual, inward exploration, to achieve it and with our current system constantly trying to program people to manage them and exploit them, it becomes terribly counterproductive and hostile.

Our current system is based on competition, which creates winners and losers and that breeds malcontent, jealousy, dishonesty, and exploitation. And that all leads to what we have today with violence, hatred, depression, oppression, repression and everything else.

So anyway, to get back to the main question at hand, I think anything that perpetuates this flawed system is just putting a band-aid on a gaping mortal wound.

Basically, we need to get beyond materialism and see that the most precious things in this existence do not come from without, but come from within.

[Fasheem]

There are so many things wrong with the economy that no matter what it's never going to work.

Our current economic model is basically a giant pyramid scheme with each level supporting and increasing the wealth of the upper.

What you seem to support is the idea floated by the likes of Ron Paul and the Libertarians about how completely unleashing the free market is the best option. I have my doubts. I think it inevitably leads to essentially what we have now with basically an oligarchy controlling everything. Without regulation the "winners" start to gain supremacy and rig the system to drown out or absorb any potential challenges to their imposed order. It turns into a bunch of monopolies. And then when and if the system crashes or the giant goes down then the whole economic system implodes, which is kind of what was going to happen if something wasn't done to stabilize the economy.

While I'm not in favor of a completely communist or socialist government, consolidating all power with the government, I think we definitely need checks and balances. I do think that we need something in place that allows for equal opportunity and doesn't hinder the potential of new generations of people.

I think eventually the real change has to come from people. People have to see the value in helping each other as much as helping themselves. Our current system, if I understand it correctly, is founded in the ideas of Adam Smith and his theory that free market capitalism is the best form of an economy because it plays into the inherent selfishness of people. I hope that that's not true. I hope that humanity can get over its selfishness and start to see the earth as more of a collective being, as I think it truly is, with everything relying on the other for survival and prosperity. Once that kind of mental and cultural foundation is in place, I think this country and the world would start to see the real benefit in allowing everyone to fulfill his own special self-realization, full potential, and self-worth.

It really demands a lot from people initially, but I think once people could get their minds in that sort of mentality it would kind of sustain itself. But it takes a lot of psychological self-deprogramming from each individual, inward exploration, to achieve it and with our current system constantly trying to program people to manage them and exploit them, it becomes terribly counterproductive and hostile.

Our current system is based on competition, which creates winners and losers and that breeds malcontent, jealousy, dishonesty, and exploitation. And that all leads to what we have today with violence, hatred, depression, oppression, repression and everything else.

So anyway, to get back to the main question at hand, I think anything that perpetuates this flawed system is just putting a band-aid on a gaping mortal wound.

Basically, we need to get beyond materialism and see that the most precious things in this existence do not come from without, but come from within.

And pigs will fly out of my ass.

[Junkogen]

And pigs will fly out of my ass.

LMAO!

"Yes, we can." -Barack Obama

[Fasheem]

LMAO!

"Yes, we can." -Barack Obama

Obama is just a shiny new front for the same old world order. Or even if you don't believe that, he's still only one man.

[Junkogen]

Obama is just a shiny new front for the same old world order. Or even if you don't believe that, he's still only one man.

I wasn't implying anything beyond the message derived from the quote.

[IrishCream]

There are so many things wrong with the economy that no matter what it's never going to work.

Our current economic model is basically a giant pyramid scheme with each level supporting and increasing the wealth of the upper.

What you seem to support is the idea floated by the likes of Ron Paul and the Libertarians about how completely unleashing the free market is the best option. I have my doubts. I think it inevitably leads to essentially what we have now with basically an oligarchy controlling everything. Without regulation the "winners" start to gain supremacy and rig the system to drown out or absorb any potential challenges to their imposed order. It turns into a bunch of monopolies. And then when and if the system crashes or the giant goes down then the whole economic system implodes, which is kind of what was going to happen if something wasn't done to stabilize the economy.

While I'm not in favor of a completely communist or socialist government, consolidating all power with the government, I think we definitely need checks and balances. I do think that we need something in place that allows for equal opportunity and doesn't hinder the potential of new generations of people.

I think eventually the real change has to come from people. People have to see the value in helping each other as much as helping themselves. Our current system, if I understand it correctly, is founded in the ideas of Adam Smith and his theory that free market capitalism is the best form of an economy because it plays into the inherent selfishness of people. I hope that that's not true. I hope that humanity can get over its selfishness and start to see the earth as more of a collective being, as I think it truly is, with everything relying on the other for survival and prosperity. Once that kind of mental and cultural foundation is in place, I think this country and the world would start to see the real benefit in allowing everyone to fulfill his own special self-realization, full potential, and self-worth.

It really demands a lot from people initially, but I think once people could get their minds in that sort of mentality it would kind of sustain itself. But it takes a lot of psychological self-deprogramming from each individual, inward exploration, to achieve it and with our current system constantly trying to program people to manage them and exploit them, it becomes terribly counterproductive and hostile.

Our current system is based on competition, which creates winners and losers and that breeds malcontent, jealousy, dishonesty, and exploitation. And that all leads to what we have today with violence, hatred, depression, oppression, repression and everything else.

So anyway, to get back to the main question at hand, I think anything that perpetuates this flawed system is just putting a band-aid on a gaping mortal wound.

Basically, we need to get beyond materialism and see that the most precious things in this existence do not come from without, but come from within.

You're right in theory, but wrong in practice. The problem is (and I blame Bush for this as much as anyone) that we haven't been allowing capitalism to really fail. Every time one of these companies were going under or going through with layoffs, the government stepped in to "save the day". Well...the problem is this just puts a band aid on it and does nothing to really solve what was wrong in the first place. The number of these corporations that have band aids pile up, and when they all all eventually fail again (and they will/did), it's massive! So instead of one company laying off a couple hundred or couple thousand people, it's ten-to-hundreds of thousands.

Here's a better analogy that pretty much everyone can relate to. It's like a kid getting to the end of 2nd grade and he needs to be held back because he's not quite on a 3rd grade level. Instead, the teacher just pencil whips his grades and pushes him forward to the 3rd grade anyway. Now he's in 3rd grade and behind the curve. Well, fast forward to his high school graduation; now he's waaaaaaay behind because the problem kept piling up over the years as he's tried to play catch up. Now he's out of school and you throw him into the world and tell him to sink or swim on his own with what he learned. His failure is going to be massive and colossal.

We're a country that's become too afraid to admit failure. Every system fails from time to time, none are perfect. I just happen to think capitalism works for how our country was founded and structured. I think if we deviated from that too much it would require a major restructuring and fuck shit up more because our country wasn't built for that. It's like asking your motorcycle to be a mini-van or something.

[Mr Wallstreet]

Got a bad feelin' we got a nasty inflation comin' in our future... This economy shit probably would've worked itself out eventually. The government throwing around money was what made shit stink in the first place; I somehow doubt it's the solution.

Discuss

The Stimulus package looks uncertain at best, and a disaster at worst.

I really hope it works though

[JediMindTrick]

Why people think giving out $500 is going to stimulate anything is beyond me. If you're like me and my wife, you'll either pay off a credit card or put it in savings. At most a teenager will buy a Wii - but nintendo doesn't need any stimulating. I think they should have gone with Obama's original plan to spend more on, well, spending, and like nothing on tax breaks.

[Junkogen]

You're right in theory, but wrong in practice. The problem is (and I blame Bush for this as much as anyone) that we haven't been allowing capitalism to really fail. Every time one of these companies were going under or going through with layoffs, the government stepped in to "save the day". Well...the problem is this just puts a band aid on it and does nothing to really solve what was wrong in the first place. The number of these corporations that have band aids pile up, and when they all all eventually fail again (and they will/did), it's massive! So instead of one company laying off a couple hundred or couple thousand people, it's ten-to-hundreds of thousands.

That's not true. They let the first few tank. Remember Lehman Brothers and the like? That's partly why we're in this mess in the first place, beyond the obvious greed. All these economic giants are so interconnected that if one goes it's pretty much a domino effect and the house of cards comes tumbling down. And that's pretty much what it is: a house of cards. Our economic system doesn't seem to be based on anything tangible. Also, the lack of regulation allows all these conglomerates to consolidate and kill off competition creating these financial goliaths. If the market was totally free we'd be in a constant state of a bipolar fluctuation between growth and recession. So then we just have a series of boom times followed by Great Depressions. How would it ever stabilize?

Here's a better analogy that pretty much everyone can relate to. It's like a kid getting to the end of 2nd grade and he needs to be held back because he's not quite on a 3rd grade level. Instead, the teacher just pencil whips his grades and pushes him forward to the 3rd grade anyway. Now he's in 3rd grade and behind the curve. Well, fast forward to his high school graduation; now he's waaaaaaay behind because the problem kept piling up over the years as he's tried to play catch up. Now he's out of school and you throw him into the world and tell him to sink or swim on his own with what he learned. His failure is going to be massive and colossal.

I think that's more the influence of moneyed special interests and lobbyists persuading the lawmakers to turn a blind eye to their cooked books and unscrupulous lending practices.

Conversely, though, a totally free market would be like if there were no teachers at all and the children were left to their own devices. Completely free market capitalism is basically an economic Lord of the Flies.

We're a country that's become too afraid to admit failure. Every system fails from time to time, none are perfect. I just happen to think capitalism works for how our country was founded and structured. I think if we deviated from that too much it would require a major restructuring and fuck shit up more because our country wasn't built for that. It's like asking your motorcycle to be a mini-van or something.

Actually, Jefferson thought we should have a more agrarian system.

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -Thomas Jefferson

"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America rise, not from defects in the Constitution or Confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, so much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation." -John Adams

"If all bank loans were paid, there would not be a dollar of coin or currency in circulation. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation. We are absolutely without a permanent money system." -Robert Hemphill, Federal Reserve Bank.

A lot of people rip on Wikipedia, but dammit it's great for getting bare-bones general information and pertinent quotes.

[wolf_2099]

Just out of curiousity, how many of you work or have any education in high finance?

[IrishCream]

I've never played major league baseball in my life, but that doesn't mean I can't make a convincing argument as to why Joba Chamberlain should be a starting pitcher and not a reliever.

[wolf_2099]

I've never played major league baseball in my life, but that doesn't mean I can't make a convincing argument as to why Joba Chamberlain should be a starting pitcher and not a reliever.

Thats not what I was implying, but good jump to conclusion.

[IrishCream]

Well, that's how it comes off. Phrase the statement differently and it won't be taken that way.

[wolf_2099]

I figured that, I just have no idea how else you'd phrase it.

[IrishCream]

Dunno...throw a disclaimer in at the end? A humorous photo?

[wolf_2099]

I thought that was a plastic bag over the cats head, and it was dead at first. Very funny, very fail.

That would have made sense. I think I need sleep.

[Junkogen]

Just out of curiousity, how many of you work or have any education in high finance?

I'm pretty sure Wally is the only one of us that works in and has an education in anything related to finance.

[IrishCream]

He has to...his name is Mr. Wallstreet

[wolf_2099]

Not necessarily. Wally, what exactly do you do?