Fuck you, Marvel.
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Stocky Boy
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The guys at House to Astonish covered this very well in their most recent podcast. They are both lawyers incidently.
Paul O'Brien from HtoA mentioned that he's reticent to weigh in one way or the other here, since we just don't know the details well enough. He also pointed out that Marvel are incredibly unlikely to pursue that $17,000. It's just not financially worth it. Getting it will likely cost more than what you're getting in return. But the main reason for the counter claim and/or the usual point to any civil claim is to reach a more favourable negotiating point for a settlement. I can't see why Marvel would especially need a bargaining chip here, but it's to their advantage that Gary is now in a weaker position to play cards with them. This $17,000 is leverage for something else down the line. I'm guessing it's a cut of the Ghostrider film money.
If I got the jist of the podcast correct, Gary Friedrich and Marvel all but signed the proper papers back in the day that made Ghostrider Marvels. Gary brought GR to Marvel, so it is a bit different than creating a character in house, but the case appears to be more akin to both parties neglecting to finalise the paperwork rather than either side doing purposely not signing the original binding documents.
Those prints Gary has been selling aren't like an artist drawing Marvel characters and making money off of a licenced character that doesn't belong to the artist. We're talking prints, which only the publisher/licensing company should be making money from. When artists do artwork and cons and what not, this is a bit of a sticky area. It's something publishers actively turn their back on, because it fosters good working relationships with the artist and the fans. However, there is a legal dilemna with it. Now imagine how much bigger that dilemna is when its a writer selling prints.
Creator rights and creators ending up poor by getting a bum deal is very sad. Howeever, in this example, Gary doesn't have a case not because Marvel are shrewd scumbags, but because Gary simply does not have much of a case.
The HtoA guys came up with a good comparision for thinking about how much credit do you want to give the creator of a character. There's no disagreement that the creator deserves something, but how much do you give Len Wein for inventing Wolverine when Claremont can be better credited for Wolverine's breakthrough?
Paul O'Brien from HtoA mentioned that he's reticent to weigh in one way or the other here, since we just don't know the details well enough. He also pointed out that Marvel are incredibly unlikely to pursue that $17,000. It's just not financially worth it. Getting it will likely cost more than what you're getting in return. But the main reason for the counter claim and/or the usual point to any civil claim is to reach a more favourable negotiating point for a settlement. I can't see why Marvel would especially need a bargaining chip here, but it's to their advantage that Gary is now in a weaker position to play cards with them. This $17,000 is leverage for something else down the line. I'm guessing it's a cut of the Ghostrider film money.
If I got the jist of the podcast correct, Gary Friedrich and Marvel all but signed the proper papers back in the day that made Ghostrider Marvels. Gary brought GR to Marvel, so it is a bit different than creating a character in house, but the case appears to be more akin to both parties neglecting to finalise the paperwork rather than either side doing purposely not signing the original binding documents.
Those prints Gary has been selling aren't like an artist drawing Marvel characters and making money off of a licenced character that doesn't belong to the artist. We're talking prints, which only the publisher/licensing company should be making money from. When artists do artwork and cons and what not, this is a bit of a sticky area. It's something publishers actively turn their back on, because it fosters good working relationships with the artist and the fans. However, there is a legal dilemna with it. Now imagine how much bigger that dilemna is when its a writer selling prints.
Creator rights and creators ending up poor by getting a bum deal is very sad. Howeever, in this example, Gary doesn't have a case not because Marvel are shrewd scumbags, but because Gary simply does not have much of a case.
The HtoA guys came up with a good comparision for thinking about how much credit do you want to give the creator of a character. There's no disagreement that the creator deserves something, but how much do you give Len Wein for inventing Wolverine when Claremont can be better credited for Wolverine's breakthrough?
The other thing about commissions at cons.
It also keeps companies salaries down. I am sure they factor in the money made by artists at convention when working out the price they pay per page. If they started denying artists the ability to do commissions, that is thousands of dollars lost by artists, that I imagine they would be expected the companies to make up for in what they are paid.
Not allowing prints I can understand. They are mass producing a copyrighted thing to sell. If knock-off are illegal, I can fully understand why Marvel would have a problem with it.
Whatever the legal battle is with ghost rider, of which I don't really know, I just hope to hell they don't actually force the $17k payment. It's fine if they won, I understand why they would want to, but take the win and move on. They make enough from the character as is without coming after the creator of it.
It also keeps companies salaries down. I am sure they factor in the money made by artists at convention when working out the price they pay per page. If they started denying artists the ability to do commissions, that is thousands of dollars lost by artists, that I imagine they would be expected the companies to make up for in what they are paid.
Not allowing prints I can understand. They are mass producing a copyrighted thing to sell. If knock-off are illegal, I can fully understand why Marvel would have a problem with it.
Whatever the legal battle is with ghost rider, of which I don't really know, I just hope to hell they don't actually force the $17k payment. It's fine if they won, I understand why they would want to, but take the win and move on. They make enough from the character as is without coming after the creator of it.
"French is like anal, exotic but oh so unnecessary."
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Mr Wallstreet
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This is a fair point. My shock didn't come from Marvel winning the lawsuit; most of the facts were on Marvel's side given the way the business with GR was handled. My shock and frustration at Marvel came from the countersuit they won which required Gary to pony up $17k he doens't have.Stocky Boy wrote:
Creator rights and creators ending up poor by getting a bum deal is very sad. Howeever, in this example, Gary doesn't have a case not because Marvel are shrewd scumbags, but because Gary simply does not have much of a case.
I really hope Marvel doesn't force Gary to pay the actual countersuit claim. Marvel has more than enough cash in their coffers and they've secured legal ownership of GR. Forcing payment would be a clear cut case of kicking someone while they're down.
What really sucks out of this is if more artist go the Sean Murphy and decide to stop sketching characters they don't own. If it becomes the general trend, I'll take the plane back to New York and shit in front of the Marvel offices.
Then I'll travel to Orlando, kidnapp Mickey Mouse, take him back to New York and rub his nose in the shit I shat on Marvel's doorstep.
Then I'll travel to Orlando, kidnapp Mickey Mouse, take him back to New York and rub his nose in the shit I shat on Marvel's doorstep.
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Mr Wallstreet
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Yes, Murphy announced it on his blog
http://seangordonmurphy.deviantart.com/ ... -285030622
I think Marvel unknowingly opened a huge can of worms with the whole Gary Frederich thing. Having artists draw your favorite character was the huge allure of Artist Alley. With artists backing away from drawing characters they don't own throws a giant wet towel on the experience.
http://seangordonmurphy.deviantart.com/ ... -285030622
I think Marvel unknowingly opened a huge can of worms with the whole Gary Frederich thing. Having artists draw your favorite character was the huge allure of Artist Alley. With artists backing away from drawing characters they don't own throws a giant wet towel on the experience.
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Tragic Angelus
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The reasoning behind the lawsuit, I fully understand, and can agree with.MGM wrote:It makes you wonder whether Marvel never thought about how they'd cone across in this one.
The 17k now sounds like it wasn't even up to Marvel to pay, it was a court required fee for the losers of the case.
The guy was selling ghost rider prints done by OTHER ARTISTS. That's asking to get sued.
"French is like anal, exotic but oh so unnecessary."
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Tragic Angelus
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I have to agree there. He was a writer selling prints of other peoples work. I've seen him at shows. He advertises himself through books and prints. I'm sure he'd sign books he wrote but those prints he did not create shy of making copies of them. That u do have an issue with. If its a creator owned book and the writer is selling prints WITH the artist there as well that's one thing. But no artist there at all and multiple prints by different people? That's a problem. It's slightly similar to the Ron Granito thing a year ago. At least this guy actually worked on the property he was selling but he was making money off others' work as his own.
Wait, this I agree with. I thought he was selling prints of his own work.wolf_2099 wrote:The reasoning behind the lawsuit, I fully understand, and can agree with.
The 17k now sounds like it wasn't even up to Marvel to pay, it was a court required fee for the losers of the case.
The guy was selling ghost rider prints done by OTHER ARTISTS. That's asking to get sued.